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I have always had wine with my husband. I was always very moderate. His drinking as continued while mine has obviously had to stop. I KNOW that this is good for my health. But it is really hard to wrap my mind around. All of our dinner parties involve wine. My parents drink wine. (My dad is pretty moderate for health reasons). My sister and I are close and she drinks regularly. My husband has cut back a little since I have been sick and he only drinks two nights per week at home. But he is also out for work and drinks then so I don't feel like he has made much of a sacrifice. Tonight of course I was particularly sensitive to it because everyone was eating and drinking whatever they wanted. Luckily my half brother and his girlfriend were not drinking which helped a little. I guess I am feeling sorry for myself.
Dr. B says 1/2 her clients go back to drinking some. I wonder if there is a safe amount for some people that would like to drink some times and what that would be?? I know I am only in the beginning of treatment but I am struggling with this right now. Maybe my mindset will shift. I feel like if I knew how to safely moderate after treatment that would be a good thing. But Dr. B does not of course make specific recommendations about this.
Does anyone else have a spouse that has continued to drink while they are in treatment? It is really upsetting me right now.
Does anyone imagine they will drink some after treatment?
Has anyone spoken with someone who was in treatment and is able to drink occasionally afterwards?
Thanks for any thoughts.
editing my own post to add
wanted to add that of course I am wondering about occasional drinking AFTER treatment, NOT during! I wish we had more info on how former patients are doing with this issue.
If we don't excel at health, the only other option is disease.
I would like to know about
I would like to know about this too. I will say the drinking issue has gotten a lot easier for me the longer I don't do it. I still miss the experience of it but it is less painful now. My husband doesn't really drink around me very much because I hate the smell on his breath so much!
This is such a difficult lifestyle change. I was not a big drinker at all but I truly enjoyed wine and beer when I had it. Plus there was something so nice about sitting down with my husband and having some wine or a beer. I hope I will be able to have a glass of wine on special occasions at some point.
I always try to remember to be grateful for the lack of even slight hangovers. looking for the positive always helps me.
Thank you Deir!
I wonder if Dr. B has done or considered doing a follow-up survey with her patients that are finished treatment? I realize how busy she is and may not have time but I am going to ask her. I have a Masters Degree in Public Health and would be thrilled to volunteer to work with her and others to put an anonymous survey together (not just about drinking but diet, etc...) I know that everyone's IC and body are different and some people can tolerate more drinking than others after treatment. But I am a proponent of moderation because I think for some people it is more realistic than abstinence. If I knew there were some reasonable/general guidelines for drinking after treatment, I would follow them to the letter. But then I wouldn't feel so deprived and I also wouldn't feel like I was gambling every time I raised my glass. I am going to talk to Dr. B about this going forward.
If we don't excel at health, the only other option is disease.
I wold imagine that after you
I wold imagine that after you are well, you could drink in moderation. The biggest issue with alcohol is the sugar aspect but wine and beer also have a lot of yeast. It may increase symptoms for some but I bet it is on a case to case basis.
I used to drink a little but stopped it all together when I got sick. My husbnad doesnt drink at all so it is not a big deal in our house. My parents do drink daily though and that is tough to be around.
It seems that most people heal and are able to return to a pretty normal lifestyle again, so I would hold onto that thought.
survey
The survey isn't going to help you determine if you can drink again. First of all for epidemiologic reasons--sampling, etc. And secondly, It doesn't matter how many people go back to drinking. The point of TCM is that everyone is so different. Maybe people who have your particular issues are able to drink or maybe they are not; but looking at everyone as a group is not going to give you insight on how drinking will affect you. Furthermore, I cannot imagine that adding alcohol to your diet on a regular basis is a good idea. Aside from it being extremely drying, it is metabolized the same way as sugar. I think that going through treatment a second time looks more difficult, and it is better to look at alcohol as something that made you sick in the first place. Just my two cents.
Survey
I think a survey of all IC patients, those who are still in treatment and those who have recovered would be a brilliant idea. It would answer so many of the questions out there. What is the average recovery time? What role did stress play prior to IC? Other health issues? What type of diet did we have? Maybe there are connections that would become obvious, for example, those who had been on alot of antibiotics have these symptoms and those who 'got' IC following surgery have slightly different symptoms, because i often wonder about these things. Even to find out about other conditions that often go together with IC, do these get better as the bladder gets better? What are people's experiences? If a survey was done i would for sure cooperate and if a report was published with survey results and maybe some case studies it would be very interesting for all of us!
C
again
I don't think this is a good idea. First of all, the information produced would really depend on the response rate. If you could get above 85% of patients to respond, that would a) be a miracle b) be a different story. Secondly, you would actually need to run statistical analysis to determine whether the results were statistically significant or simply due to chance. Lastly, you would need to model this out to determine what factors together contributed to each of these outcomes. It's not an issue of just emailing out a survey and looking at the results. It is much more complicated that that if you are trying to ascertain a causal relationship. Furthermore, you would need access to people's medical records to determine the information about antibiotics, original diagnosis, childhood illnesses etc if you are trying to show a causal relationship...because of temporality. This would require some sort of IRB approval. Otherwise, you're gonna get meaningless responses.
I have to agree with
I have to agree with Researchnerd. I don't think it would be a good idea. It's already too easy to compare ourselves to each other and it could potentially cause doubt and fear where none is needed. We are each on our own journey.
If you want to understand more about how treatment works and why it works, and what is happening in a person's body when he/she has IC, read Dr. B's dissertation. It answered many of the questions I had when I started treatment and made total sense to me. Dr. B knows each one of us, so in a sense she is like a "living survey." LOL
Thanks for all of the responses
CO, I agree!
Hi Researchnerd! I totally respect your opinion. And that of Dr. B for that matter. And as you pointed out to me, I am early in treatment so it is hard to imagine such a big change in my life. I know that we have a relatively small cohort in Dr. B's practice, but as CO pointed out, a survey is a starting place for more information about living symptom-free and happy going forward. There must be some value to qualitative research and I thought that the idea with qualitative was to inform quantitative research design going forward (which I believe Dr. B would like to do if I am not mistaken)
I did watch: "Sugar, the Bitter Truth" on YouTube (thank you!) as you suggested and understand that alcohol is metabolized like sugar in the body. But there are plenty of people that drink in moderation and live full, long lives. This is what i am having a hard time with. If I re-balance my body and take very good care of it, but occasionally enjoy a social glass of wine, or a sugar-free cocktail I think I will not ruminate on it as much and I can just live my life. Right now I am having a hard time imagining living with my husband, whom I love, and never drinking again because he is my life partner and the father of my children. And he drinks socially. And because it was something that I enjoyed in moderation.
I realize that in TCM the view is that every body is different. But there still must be trends that we could discover that would be helpful.
I also would like to know, what is the difference between relapsing from cheating during treatment, when the body is more vulnerable, versus noticing some symptoms after treatment, and then avoiding the offenders. Dr. B has mentioned that people have relapsed for various reasons, trying a new hair dye, or getting botox, and she has been able to help get them back on track fairly quickly. Others have been out of treatment for 5-8 years (as I had read here) and had taken multiple courses of antibiotics. They needed to be in treatment longer. For every 1 person that returns to Dr. B because they started drinking and eating sugar, how many others are moderating and doing fine?
I certainly am a huge proponent of this way of eating. But this is basically the way I have been eating for the last 5 years. The big changes for me were increasing my veggie intake and eating protein with each meal. And I would NEVER again, drink alcohol on an empty stomach, nor would I add sweeteners to it. Sorry to belabor, but this has been very much on my mind. I am sure I will have something different to say once I am further in treatment. Thanks for reading!
If we don't excel at health, the only other option is disease.
Researchnerd I think you and I were posting at the same time!
I totally agree about the statistics part. I wonder if Dr. B would eventually want to try to do this type of study. If she could get approval to access respondent's medical histories, then she might have a chance to advance and broaden her approach to reach more people. I also think her work could influence the Functional Medicine and Naturopathic Medical, and perhaps the mainstream medical communities. I hope she can find a way to develop a well designed study some day.
If we don't excel at health, the only other option is disease.
I as well would love to help
I as well would love to help/take part in a survey like this, but I do understand that all of our bodies are different!
As for me, I personally healed myself from IC three different times through diet ( on and off throughout the years)...and each of those times stress, too much drinking ( honestly not too excessively, just a couple times a week a glass or two, and variation on diet ( adding in things I thought I could handle that were healthy, but apparently my gut hadn't healed enough to eat them) and taking care of myself was an issue that brought me back to having it again.
However, I feel that even though my bladder felt better, I had not really healed my leaky gut. So even though I thought that I was better, I still needed work ...so when the alcohol and all that was added to the load, my body's balance tipped!
I would say that if you have healed your leaky gut and are really really solid and progressed on a lot of your other health issues, then a glass or two here or there may be fine but as stated, everyone is so different!
I know that personally after I have had so many bouts with this, I have decided once and for all that if I do drink when I'm better, it will be at my wedding day MAYBE and only a little bit to toast hahah.
My husband drinks quite a bit of wine
Mimi, my husband is a wine buff and drinks on a very regular basis (3-4 times per week). He buys marvelous bottles of wine and it sucks knowing I can't even taste!
But 9 months into treatment, it is infinitely easier to abstain than it was, say, 3 months into treatment. Up until about the 4th month, I was still sneaking tiny sips of my husband's wine. The craving/addition to sugar was immense! Now I take some pleasure in taking big whiffs of his delicious wine and guessing at the "taste notes" purely based on scent.
Now that I can easily say no to alcohol, I ask myself if I would ever go back to it willingly. My body feels great without it and I sure don't miss the little layer of "baby fat" around my tummy! The answer is definitely yes, but only for a special dinner, and maybe half a glass at that. This experience has really re-defined my relationship with alcohol. Before, it was a default for relaxing or socializing. In the future, when I am fully recovered, I will approach it carefully and enjoy it for the experience -- maybe twice a month?
All that said, Dr. Brizman says if you absolutely must drink something, Vodka is the least lethal of all choices :).
Thank you Positive Gal!
I can't tell you HOW MUCH it helps to hear of someone with a wine-buff husband who is feeling really good about abstaining 9 months into treatment.!! My addiction to sugar and alcohol must be really strong because it is really bugging me.
How long does it really take to be over this sugar/alcohol addiction?? I miss it every night.
I rarely ate dessert, but loved to have a low-sugar cocktail or glass of wine when we went to a restaurant. Living in the Bay Area there are so many specialty cocktails it is ridiculous! I do love food, but I am realizing I loved drinking just about as much as food, so that is going to have to change. Dr. B did mention the Vodka but said to try to wait because people do not do well in treatment if they drink. I asked her if I could have a drink on my birthday, and she said yes, but I imagine she is buying me time because she knows I will probably be more evolved in my thinking about health 5 months from now! This is so hard because I have two small kiddos and I used to use my 1-2 glasses of wine to unwind at night. Need to find other things now. Just mourning a loss. And I think it would be easier if there was a more moderate way to do this, but cold turkey was hard for me, on top of all of my IC pain and fear. Thanks for your reply.
If we don't excel at health, the only other option is disease.
Of course! I am so happy my
Of course! I am so happy my story resonates and can help in any way!
Mimi, I TOTALLY feel you! (Hey by the way, I live in the Bay Area too -- so many great restaurants agh!!!).
I actually had a couple of serious alcohol related meltdowns in the first half of treatment. I was going through all the festivities of getting married, and so I drank quite a bit at my bachelorette party (around 2 months into treatment), and then again at my wedding (around 4 months in). I mean... it's life, I don't regret having done exactly what I wanted to do on this very special occasion and having the best time of my life. BUT I do have to accept the consequences: 4 months later, I still haven't recovered from those binges. I tolerated the first binge okay. But the wedding-day and honeymoon binge COMPLETELY changed the course of my illness and Matia has been trying to chase it ever since. We still haven't been able to stabilize. Ay...
The cravings slowly waned, until about the 7th month. Trust me, they will lessen. I used to have a huge sweet-tooth. Always had dessert. I sweetened stuff all the time. The first month was awful; and it is still sometimes hard to this day to say no. But, I can't explain it, it's just...easier. And to be honest, I still do steal a bite of my husband's dessert if he has some, so we just outlawed sweets in our home altogether!
Nadia, you should write a
Nadia, you should write a book. :)
Your name means Hope. What a beautiful correlation.
I agree with Blondy! Nadia should write a book!
Easy for me to say ;)
Nadia and Positivegal, thank you soo much for your thoughts.
Nadia, do you mind mentioning what happened with your relapse? Was it introducing sugar or alcohol again? Something else?
I too recently have looked at my girls who are 5 and 7 and notice how HAPPY they are, just in themselves. They are not missing alcohol!! (Now sugar is another issue and I am working on getting that 100% out of the house). Mostly they just have fruit for dessert now which I am proud of! I just try to connect with the 7-year old in me that was perfect without alcohol. There are just so many social challenges for me with alcohol. It is in my house and eating out was a big part of what I enjoyed with my husband, and of course it is everywhere. I am going to have to trust that my mind will shift. I pray it does. I think I miss the flavor and the relaxed feeling it gave me. I am going to have to ask myself why I need to numb out. Of course I am not doing it now. I also think my hormones are out of whack since the births of my children, and I know my vitamin D levels are low so once that gets sorted out maybe I won't need the alcohol to feel ok in the evening when I am tired, hungry or stressed. My energy has really improved in treatment so that is a good sign!!
Thanks all!!!!
If we don't excel at health, the only other option is disease.
I feel the same level of
I feel the same level of attachment to coffee. I enjoy (well, used to enjoy) alcohol socially. I absolutely looooved martinis. What a treat it was as well as a ritual. To hold a glass of a bright surprisingly amazing drink. I would become one with it, holding it high, slowly drinking it while having a conversation. I just realized, I don't miss it a tiny bit. Something inside of me changed, and I keep a distance from it now.
However, I have an unhealthy attachment to coffee. I have to have it when I feel good or bad. When I have an average, stable, uneventful day, I don't crave it. I probably should inventory my reasons for such enticement. It is my pillow pet when I feel happy or sad. I should find out why. Sometimes, I catch myself dreaming about how I will drink coffee all day long once I am done with treatment, but I immediately say 'no'. I understand that to maintain health, we will never go to our old ways of living. I am done with alcohol, but coffee (that brought a chaos in the first place), still a struggle. We learn as we grow and we grow every day. The battle is in the mind often times. But it does get easier with time because we change and become stronger, standing on solid foundation.
The beginning of treatment, I think is the hardest time.
I'm with Nadia
This is a really interesting one. I *loved* to drink before treatment. Would binge-drink pre-kids, and in the three years between having my son and getting IC, would pretty much drink every night as a matter of course. I kind of knew it wasn't ideal but didn't really want to examine it too closely. I'm pretty sure drinking was linked to IC for me - in the run-up to coming down with it, I noticed that five mins after I had my first sip of booze I'd be desperate to pee. But of course I didn't think anything of it at the time, or notice how weird it was!! <kicks self> Also, my hangovers were getting absolutely awful, even from a couple of glasses of wine. I now reckon this was because of systemic yeast - the alcohol was just overloading my system.
Anyway - not having booze was by FAR the worst thing for me at the beginning of treatment (I had killer sugar cravings, too ,but the booze thing was much worse). I'm now just past my two-year IC-versary, and though I didn't go into treatment with Dr B until I was about 8 months in, I stopped drinking and eating sugar very early on. And now, two years on, I can say with absolute certainty that I'll never go back to sugar again, and as to alcohol, I'm not even sure about that anymore. I think at the moment that it would be nice to be able to have a glass of wine on my bitrhday/partner's birthday, but like Nadia, I'm now not even sure why! And if I don't drink for the rest of the year will I actually *want* to on my birthday? And will I ever be at a stage where the desire for a glass of wine would outweigh the fear of putting it into my body? My thinking's definitely changing on it, even now.
My partner does still drink, but so, so much less than he did before I got IC (we used to drink together!) He'll have a glass of wine if we go out, or the odd beer at home. It's one of the things I'm delighted about; I'm making his health better too! Now if only I could wean him off chocolate brownies ... ;) At least he's taking probiotics and aware that sugar is evil, at any rate!!!